Debate...

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There is an interesting debate going on about the EE2005 and the gov't's role in bringing it to reality as well as EPRDF's background and the agenda of the opposition (CUD).

This was started by Prof. Clapham with his "Comments on the Ethiopian Crisis" that was posted on the internet. It was followed by replies from differnt angles.

The whole debate is available in the right column of the main page under "Interesting Debates".
OR click on the link http://www.blogger.com/publish-comment.do?blogID=19183526&postID=113294241150705374&r=ok

And is Kassa Kebede the "Kassa Kebede"? I am not sure and I am wondering if it is him. If so, it is extremely surprising to hear what he had to say.

BELOW ARE TEXTS OF DEBATES i HAD WITH MY FRIENDS...

Is CUD ready for parliament?

http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=50568&SelectRegion=Horn_of_
Africa&SelectCountry=ETHIOPIA

"...The call for dialogue came as more than 50 CUD members ended their boycott of parliament. The party had refused to assume the 109 seats it won in the 15 May parliamentary elections, claiming the vote was rigged in favour of the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front, the ruling party.Opposition parties, which won only 12 seats during the 2000 elections, got a total of 174 seats in the May polls, or 32 percent of the parliament..."

----T----

T----,
Demonstrating against rigged elections does not amount to a coup d'etat. I don't think you know what the word means. What was attempted in our country in 1960 and what was done in 1974 is what a coup d'etat is my friend.
I'm glad you're admitting it though. Free and fair elections are not only not going to happen in Ethiopia but it is also a ridiculous thing to suggest. It is a naive dream for us Africans and a system of government reserved only for non Africans. I don't have any conflicting views. I'm just a humble advocate for true democracy. Now.

----Si----

Si----??????????????DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

when did you become an advocate of coup d'etat-s? This whole time I was under the impression that you, at least, understand the law and realities on the ground.
What you are suggesting or dreaming about in your email is not only going to happen, it is ridiculous.

Have you listened to the interview?
Have you read anything outside Ethiopian review?

Keep in mind, Lidetu also refused to enter parliament as all the rest. He just did not try to overthrow the gov't as did hailu and co; which by the way, you now admitted was a great idea, while at the same time pointing to their lawyers's when they argue that Hailu and co were not masterminds of the coup attempt.

How could you want these two TOTALLY conflicting ideas (peacefull vs coup d'etat) to work?

----T----

This is Meles's kind of opposition politician. Cry out in public that you hate the EPRDF but work behind the scenes to undermine the biggest threat to the EPRDF. The whole thing is set up so that EPRDF supporters can point to this guy and say why can't the rest of the CUD be like this guy. We don't really know the real reason why this dude left the CUD. Maybe he's scared of Meles since anybody who is standing up to Meles is either dead, in jail or death row. Maybe this dude wanted to avoid these fates and decided to become the "right" kind of opposition politician. Join the "system". Legitimize all of Meles's actions. Get screwed again and again for the next 50 years or more. No thanks homes. The system is broken. The only way I'll support the system is if we get a re-vote in the very near future with international observers all over the entire country watching every move. Then we can talk about the system again. Ukraine in sunny Africa homes.

----Si----

Si----, you missed the point!
This is not about EPRDF. This is about the clarification of the rumor around CUD's break up.

It shows, contrary to CUD supporters' claim, that Lidetu is not a traitor. The supporters accuse him of being a sell out because he had problems with Hailu's non-democratic behavior within the party. They want him to shut up and go away because he did not want to follow unconstitutional means to achieve victory. From Lidetu's arguments one can sense, even though he is totally against EPRDF, that he believes in the system that was setup. He talks about the institutions that exist in the country and the rules and regulations. He hates the policies EPRDF has applied, he wants to change these polices but not the system.
There, the difference between what CUD should be and what CUD as become, lies.
The folks who understand Lidetu, I have respect for; the ones that call him traitor are just sad and reinforces, to me, that Hailu and co are about coup d'etat-s.

This is about an internal crisis of CUD; nothing to do with EPRDF.
It's about the idea of:
1. opposition with respect for the constitution
2. opposition with disregard for the constitution.

Therefore; 1. is Lidetu's camp and 2. is Hailu's camp.

This is the difference between someone who has a political agenda and how he goes about accomplishing it, as opposed to the whole CUD vibe about dismantling the system.
Funny how folks who called him a hero before CUD broke up are now calling him a traitor since his method is not bent of destroying the system.

----T----

Why am I not suprised that you think he soooo much better. Meles probably thinks the same. Anything that contributes to the demise of the CUD is so much better. One less big problem our little dictator needs to worry about.

----Si----

What does this tell us about the future of CUD?
Below is an article from The Reporter.
http://www.ethiopianreporter.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1122

http://www.voanews.com/real/voa/africa/amha/amha1800a.ram
For all those who were confused as to why Lidetu and his party in it's entirety left CUD. Ato Surafel (the interviewer) sounds unhappy by what Lidetu has to say. He asks the same questions over and over hoping to get another answer from Lidetu. How funny!
forward to min 32:15

PS. I think this guy is sooooooooooooooooooo much better than the self appointed PM Hailu Shawel.

----T----

Since CUD supporters have no sympathy for Lidetu (which BTW, I think the supporters' view of Lidetu is very shortsighted), I wonder what they think about UEDF, Dr Beyene PeTros' party?

Now this guy and his party joined parliament as opposed to CUD and Lidetu. But they were in the same boat prior to the day of joining parliament. He had the same rethoric and similar strategy as CUD. Folks hailed and applauded UEDF's fight and struggle. Now they have joined parliament. Lidetu, who refused to join parliament but decided to not be part of the coup is riduculed. My question is what do you think of Beyene and co? Are they also sell-outs? Are they the loosers? Are they unpatriotic? or Maybe they are also working for Meles? Is anyone but Hailu and co going to be acknowledged as the true mature and forsighted fighters they are?

----------------

A----,

what's that got to do with Ethiopia's constitution?

When i started reading it, for some reason, I thought it was a quote from the ETH constitution.


BUT, GUESS WHAT????
The US constitution in 1776 also said: " ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL!"

And in any case, that was a declaration in independance from England. The spirit of the declaration is to emphasize/legitimize the rebel movement against england which finally became successfull..

If CUD is fighting for independance from Ethiopia, I can see how the quote might be relevent.


----T----

A----,
In theory, yes, that is what the Dec of Independence said in 1776. But in reality the Dec. of Independence served the very same white men that drafted it. "....it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it..." Which black man do you know that had a chance to abolish or alter it at that time? For that matter which white women do you that had the opportunity to do the same? Now, having said that, I am by no means saying that was ok. It was totally a screwed up system, but it was their starting point. The point is you can't expect to snap your fingers and think you can achieve this perfect society that everyone is happy with. It has to be a working progress. Just like the Dec of Independence was a working progress, you have to see our voting right and parliamentary laws as a working progress. One thing that can not happen in this process, you can not destabilize a system that is trying to inch along in the right direction. If the Dec. of Independence was ripped to shreds in 1776 because certain people or race didn't like it where would you think America would be today? Because it certainly wasn't fair then, why stay the course? Eventually the system started to recognize the will of the people and started changing to serve them. It took another 140 or so years before they let white women vote and another 180 or so years before us black folk were even allowed to use the same water fountain. The point is you need a starting point no matter how screwed up it may seem in the beginning.

Si----

The type of opposition leaders Ethiopia needs is guys like Lidetu Ayalew. This guy hates the policies of EPRDF and worked along side the rest of CUD leadership to change the regime. His eventual dismissal/withdrawal from the party came when it came time to make a decision how they should approach the post election issues. He chose the educated and the more realistic approach, like I mentioned above, let's use this as the starting point for our struggle to greatness instead of destabilizing what's already there and trying to restart over no matter how unfair it seems at this point. Let's understand where we are in our history and who we are before we go forward. This guy had foresight to realize where CUD was headed and he didn't want to be a part of it. If you heard his interview he is talking about exactly what I was telling you over the weekend. In 3000 years we decided to snap our fingers once and we are upset why this Ethiopian Democracy is not like the first world. We have to have a realistic approach not an emotional one. Hailu Shawel and his PIPS got emotional Lidetu and his PIPS got realistic. Lidetu told Surafel that point 5 or 6 different ways.
I understand the Amharic may seem a little tough for some of you guys J but try to understand what this guy was talking about.
Si---- says…
"Free and fair elections are not only not going to happen in Ethiopia but it is also a ridiculous thing to suggest. It is a naive dream for us Africans and a system of government reserved only for non Africans".

I guess you are suggesting free and fair elections where the norm in 1776 or in the 1950's for that matter in the US, right? You have already given up on the system and you are suggesting our starting point is ridiculous to say the least. That is the very same attitude Lidetu ran away from and I applaud him for that, I wish we had more opposition leaders like him. It would have expedited our eventual greatness. But, instead we have a bunch of Sirak's running around the CUD leadership who suggest this process is ridiculous because it wasn't the outcome we wanted it. You know what is ridiculous, your suggestion that non Africans (I assume Europeans and US) came to this point in history, like you turn on the clapper. (You know the clapper don't you, clap on…clap off, the clapper!!!)

E----

Yes it is sad these guys can't get a speed and fair trial but this is the very system that CUD is trying to destabilize. The US Supreme Court once voted separate but equal was constitutional, which upheld segregation. Now, eventually that was changed because the court stayed on course. If they had dismantled that court at that time because it was certainly wrong what they did, I ASK YOU where would the US judicial system be today? WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE! Unfortunately that somewhere is usually near the bottom not at the top of the spectrum in terms of being right and fair especially in poor countries like ours.

One thing that really worries me is if the educated masses, the people that have the opportunity to see and learn can't think this way, how can we lead the unfortunate people of Ethiopia who are unable to get education (let's not forget 2/3 of the population is illiterate) and be exposed to the world and exposed to how politics works and have access to information. That to me is the most crucial part of this struggle. Yetmar Yastemer Yaltemar Yemar!!! You guys are the future brains of Ethiopia and you have to have Hindsight!!!

----Sa----

...

DEMOCRACY 101


"...it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government."

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
JULY 4 1776

----A----

Si----,

I agree with most of what you said, but...

"...had we had election observers monitoring every or nearly every polling station in the country. This would involve not only monitoring the voting process but more importantly the vote counting process. Absolute transparency in the voting process. I know this would have been a herculean task but a very necessary one since, historically, in Ethiopia we have not had a single leader who has left office voluntarily. Meles is just continuing the tradition."

REALLY? That's great! FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!
But how do you make sure of that?
Do you dismantle gov't, organize a coup d'etat? Boycott ETHIOPIAN AIRLINES? Beg, plea, demonstrate and petition so that Ethiopia's schedule 100% debt cancellation is thrown out the window, a move which will allow our kids, and a couple of generations to come the burden of paying it off? Is that how we want to move forward?
OR, do we fight to ameliorate the system so that mistakes that were reported this time around do not come uncorrected in 2010?
Do we fight to ameliorate the system from parliament and work towards a free and fair NEB, while at the same time working to reduce poverty, eliminate starvation, etc...?

Su---- promises us:" My prediction is that the people of Ethiopia will show their resentment in every way they are able, with minimal risk of intimidation and being gunned down by EPRDF killers, and will eventually become ungovernable under the current unfair system...the struggle has much less to do with those individuals in jail nor did it start because of where they are today....change towards true democracy is inevitable no matter how long it takes....it could only be slowed down by the mentality that of EPRDF and Co."

This view to me is unhelpful and is full of disillusionment. It is only looking for the interest of the group, CUD and shows the lack of interest in the well being of the country as a whole or the improvement of the day to day life of the poor farmers in their millions.

Also, Si----, I believe one can tackle both the perceived problem of a free and fair election and poverty alleviation. I don't agree that tackling poverty can only start after having mastered the art of holding a free and fair election.

Again, Si----:"I feel frustrated now because not only do I feel in my gut that EPRDF stole the last election but I feel like they are going to keep stealing elections for some time to come unless something is done about it."

The question remains, how do we go forward from here? One cannot escape that question. Do we cause havoc by any means as seems to be Su----'s and a whole bunches' favorite solution?
In my opinion, if the destructive approach is not abandoned and groups are not willing to give the system a chance to improve itself, I believe the gov't will hold an election in 2010 with the 2000 rules: no international observers, bla, bla, bla....

----T----

My prediction is that the people of Ethiopia will show their resentment in every way they are able, with minimal risk of intimidation and being gunned down by EPRDF killers, and will eventually become ungovernable under the current unfair system...the struggle has much less to do with those individuals in jail nor did it start because of where they are today....change towards true democracy is inevitable no matter how long it takes....it could only be slowed down by the mentality that of EPRDF and Co.

----Su----